Choose the default "rotation mode" of the bones (Euler / Quaternion)

* @zinomax * I don't find Quaternion rotation harder than Euler to visualize in the graph editor (on the contrary, it avoids the rotation values to be so much higher than the translation value), but this is a huge problem when you need to make 180 degree rotation or 360, so when you need to make an IK arm twist system or else, you get a very weird result on the object. Sometimes, this problem can even be noticed on bones added for other constraints.

In the end, I have to admit Quaternion can be great to avoid the Gimbal lock (which was a pain on Maya when I was learning on this software), so it can be interesting for Spines rotation, Foot roll, Head and neck, etc... But in the end, the cons about using Quaternion by default are stronger than the pros, hence why I'm asking if this would be possible to let the animator choose by himself the default rotation at least.

... OR ANOTHER SOLUTION would be to suggest when you press Add (Ctrl + A) -> Armature:

1. Quaternion Rotation Bone
2. Euler Rotation Bone

...

This could be a great idea too...

* @Ak MC * As a rigger, I don't really like the idea. If you don't specifically set the Euler rotation order, you're asking for trouble. And there's really no reason to use Euler on the internals. Only the animators controls need to be euler (and again, they should be carefully selected to avoid gimbal lock)

* @Josephbburg * You said you don't like the idea as a rigger... but I don't get it. How do you make an IK arm twist in Quaternion for example? Are you really able to do something like that? As an animator, I can tell you for sure, I never managed to make a usable rig in Quaternion. Euler always was necessary.

Also, as for the gimbal lock, I already had some issues with it in Maya and I admit Quaternion sounds like an easy solution to fix that. But with a minimum of work and reflection, it is not something you can't fix easily in the graph editor if you know how to animate and, let's be honest, it is a very rare issue when you animate properly.

Recently, I made all my bones in Euler rotation mode in Blender and made most of my animations tests with a rig in Euler rotation and I never get any Gimbal lock yet.

Finally, on another hand, I don't get why you dislike the "idea". The idea is to let every riggers and animators "choose" what they want. If you don't want an Euler rotation mode, then the idea is that you just won't have to change anything so you'll stay with the Quaternion. Only the people like me and the other who commented above to approve my idea will have to change the default rotation mode in the user preferences.

In the end, this is a win-win idea.

* @Ak MC * The reason I don't like the idea is because a rigger should NEVER assign euler rotation mode without specific thought- therefore a default doesn't really make sense. Using Euler for some kinds of animation isn't possible to work around, even with the Euler filter, unless you have gimbal helpers - which are as much a pain and confusion to animate with as Quat, IMO. I remember using a rig for an animal's tail that was blending Euler rotation between several bones in a chain, so even when the controllers were free from Gimbal lock, the deform bones still popped in and out in a horrible way. It wasn't even possible to remedy with gimbal helpers. I got a bad grade on that assignment... Anyways, this isn't a problem in Blender because rigging constraints operate implicitly with quaternion math, in a seperate matrix as the transform channels the user has access to. So gimbal mostly only happens by affecting transform channels directly by keyframing or drivers. To make it more clear: quaternion is a mathematical way of handling rotations - it's actually more computationally efficient and is used implicitly in most cases. IK has a target and a pole vector- this is the same as Quaternion rotation, which stores a directionand a roll around the vector pointing in that direction. There's a great video explanation series by 3blue1brown on Youtube.

Quaternion should be used on parent-bones, such as the master location/rotation of the rig itself, the torso master control, most IK handles (since they usually don't inherit from anything but the overall master control), and any bone that isn't directly exposed to the animator (which is most bones. A rig may have 1000 pieces, but only maybe 100 are controls).

Euler should be used in most animation controls, especially FK, but it's never safe to leave it as it is without thinking about it first. If you do that, you'll have to go back and fix the rig when it has problems, likely breaking any animation data for that bone and creating problems for anyone downstream. Also, most of the time, gimbal lock and flipping can be worked around with clever use of the transform constraint and layered bones ( a control and a control_tweak).

Anyhow, I don't like the idea because I see it as encouraging bad habits. I don't see this as something that makes Blender better, but rather as something that will make it worse for people that don't know any better. Furthermore, it strikes me as odd to use as default something that should only be done on ~10% of the bones in a rig (and even then splintered into six different permutations).

* @Josephbburg * There are actually really good points here. I am not a rigger myself but I really need to check out a few best practices again. Thank you for for the writeup. Do you happen to have a tutorial Blog or YT channel or such? I'd really love to learn more. Especially well taught rigging courses I find are very scarce.

Despite that I am still also in favor of adding the option to the system preferences. The easy answer is that the software should never dictate people how to work and that you never know what special cases people actually DO run into.

Over the years I've also made the case for a few best practices I thought were 100% correct and people should stop complaining about them. And boy was I wrong with some of them. ;)

Best practices should be taught but never enforced.

Until then though and for everybody else reading this who doesn't know yet: In Pose Mode select all bones you want to change and hit Ctrl-R to change the rotation mode and order on all bones at once.

* @alexander * Thanks. My website is nodeSpaghetti.xyz .It's been a while since I've updated and it's still under construction. I've only got one rigging tutorial at the moment, but I'm planning on adding more as soon as I can find the time. I'm a full time student at the moment, and I've got a list of projects a mile long...

* @Josephbburg * I'm not sure I understand everything you explained. But I understand the idea.

Though, in that case, there are some things I don't understand. Maya, 3DS-max, lately Softimage... I don't considere those softwares as a reference myself... BUT I don't remember being able to add a bone in quaternion. I don't even remember having been able to change the rotation mode, XYZ Euler by default.

If Quaternion was this necessary for 3D rigging, shouldn't there be this system in those softwares as well? (I admit though I don't know those a lot enough neither to be able to really assure there are no quaternion rotation, but I touched a bit to the rig system in those and never saw a system different to Euler rotation).

You also said that ""IK has a target and a pole vector- this is the same as Quaternion rotation, which stores a directionand a roll around the vector pointing in that direction."" I tryed a lot of things, and I never managed to make a correct IK chain with Pole Vector without putting all of my bones (except for the pole vector, working only in translation) in Euler Rotation.

My IK arms and legs... All of the bones in those are made in Euler rotation. And I animated a model I rigged this way. So far, I met no issue.

. I don't say that you're wrong, especially that my rig is mostly made from my logic, since I didn't manage to find good enough tutorials to learn how most of the Blender riggers make their rigs.

Though, I wonder if maybe what you said wasn't right only with old versions of 3D softwares, maybe, or if it is not just a popular belief taught by one of your teacher, something like that.

Because I'm deeply convinced that my rigged model is correct and animable... which would mean that making a correct rig 100% Euler rotation IS possible... so it wouldn't be nice to be against the idea I'm suggesting here.

. Plus, I suggested to put this option in the user preferences.

Euler by default... Quaternion by default... Even if a beginner see this option, how can he know what is the best? He would obviously go searching for tutorials and decide by himself.

As for me, a 3D animator, this idea I suggest, could probably be one of the best ideas to suggest I could get in mind so far.

. PS: I also read what you said about 3blue1brown's YouTube series giving apparently more details about the things you explained. I'm curious and would probably take a look at it, but not for now. I'm still a bit too much busy. ^^'

I'm self taught, mostly. And I'm not saying this is the only way, but It's what I consider to be the best way, or the right way. The thing about IK is that it is implicitly quaternion rotation -- any constraint that tracks or points something in one direction or the other usesquaternion math under the hood, because Euler rotation will introduce gimbal lock. I'm not sure why (or how) you could have an issue with rotation order in IK chains, but then agian I never modify the rotation of IK chains when I rig, Maybe they don't play nice. Maya is the only 3D app I have experience rigging in, and it is completely worthless. Vanilla Maya has about four constraints, your only real tool is parenting. It offers quaternion interpolation for animation channels, but not quaternion storage of the values. I was taught rigging at school, but it wasn't even remedial. Don't get me started, I could complain about Maya for pages and pages. And pages.

The thing about rigging is, you only need as good a rig as the situation calls for. I tend to obsess over details, but a simple walking animation doesn't need a rig that can do gymnastics.

* @Josephbburg * Well, first of all, I have to admit I was wrong. I did so many tests and tries with the rigging system in Blender that I forgot that I managed to make a correct rig with quaternion rotations on some bones, including IK bones.

I noticed I managed to do that when I needed to reuse my rig on another model I'm working on. So... sorry about that mistake.

Though, I made some other tests, and I insist, Euler can work as well as Quaternion on a rigged model. And for animators, it is easier to use.

So... I admit my mistake, but I personally insist, it would be a great feature to add on Blender.

(Ah, and I agree about Maya's rigging system. I don't even know how Maya can call that a rig... Though, I was used to Maya 2014 and apparently, since 2015, they finally improved the rigging system... But whatever... I love Blender and don't intend to change this software at all, particularly for 3DS-max or Maya.)

* @Ak MC * Haha n problem. And naw, Maya's rigging system is terrible. The "improvements" are paid third-party plugins.

* @Josephbburg * Maya has more features and tools Blender on the other hand has only Drivers & Constraints which is not enough if you want to build more complex System, ask any Professional Animators & they'll tell you they prefer Maya over Blender and none of them would use Quaternion for their work.

* @PK_GO * What's the point in leaving such a misinformed comment on a six-month old thread?

* @Josephbburg * it's your comment that's misinformed, now just corrected :)

* @PK_GO * Lol, sure. Thanks for correcting me. Nothing like a classic appeal-to-authority fallacy to set me in my place.

* @Josephbburg * don't self praise.

* @PK_GO * I am a professional animator working on a small studio, and despite the fact that I hate Quaternion, I prefer 100% Blender instead of Maya. Maya has more tools, but it's just to impress the gallery and its professional customers who're just used to produce with their softwares and lack of confidence to switch to others (though, it may change in the future. More professionals understood and try to switch to Blender).

Maya has more tools because they stuff their software with it, but it's a total mess, hence why you can follow a tutorial about Blender and not meeting difficulties reproducing it while you often can't do that with Maya. God, how many times I spent hours on a Maya tutorials to try to understand how it works for something that I can spend 10 minutes doing on Blender with 10 minutes of tutorial.

Also... better for animators... Maya didn't even have a tool by default in its software to symmetrize a 3D animation in the 2014 version... which is probably one of the tools an animator uses the most. Blender already had that several years before.

Animators need a software which is fast to use for a productive work, not a mess with thousands of tools which needs hundreds of expensive add-ons to work correctly and an encyclopedia to know how to use it.

As for the Quaternion, I agree though, but the only people I know who told me Blender is not worth it for animation are people who never tryed to understand how to use it and only repeat what other professionals who never tryed it either say about it.

* @Ak MC * that's your personal preference, Blender is only good for small studios and hobbyists as it hides most complexities from the end user that's why it looks easier for a newbie to learn but if you want to do more complex stuff like in VFX it falls apart, the complex the mesh & rigs become the more problems blender gets... I have yet to see an impressive digi double/ VFX rig made with Blender and lets not talk about motion capture..etc there are no supported tools for that & btw we're not children stuck in 2014 comparisons we're talking about present day not the past or the future.

I can name you thousands of things that Blender lacks for serious work especially when it comes to rigging, animation , having Drivers & Constraints on a stack is a joke u can't even visually distinguish between hundreds of them, no profiling,no debugging , edit mode doesn't have local space & the ridiculous wasted time jumping between modes just to check few problems.

The animation tools are not that polished either , many little annoyances that i have reported/requested here that makes animating in blender pain in the ass...

You can praise Blender all you want but in reality and in production is not even close to Maya.

I have used both softwares in my work and Blender did not meet the needs for the projects, it straight failed & i can guarantee it won't even compete with Maya on that scale unless Blender foundation accept those shortcomings and actually do something about it.

* @PK_GO * Why are you even on this site?

* @Josephbburg * this site is supposed to be where you ask for improvements & missing features & that's exactly why i am here, i see where it is useful and use it for that particular task and request what's missing for the rest.

* @PK_GO * That's not what you're doing here... you're starting an off-topic complaint on an age-old thread.

* @Josephbburg * didn't start anything, saw wrong info & tried to correct it but you guys got upset when i mentioned Maya being more powerful which is something I see a lot from Blender user who get too sensitive about it.... I came to this topic because i was about to request something similar including both the default rotation mode and bone's local axes & it's only few months ago not that old of a topic, if you don't like the conversation just don't be part of it :).

* @PK_GO * Problem is that you're biased and start to spread "wrong infos" as well.

Like...: "Blender on the other hand has only Drivers & Constraints": This information is so simplistic and so wrong. It also has animation nodes, Pose library, Action Editor, etc... If you resume all of those tools as if they can't count, then, Maya also has "only Drivers and Constraints".

"Professional Animators & they'll tell you they prefer Maya over Blender": Talk with more professional animators. Big studios like Ubisoft are starting to feel interested to Blender: blender.org/press/ubisoft-joins-blender-development-fund/

"Blender is only good for small studios and hobbyists": Like Ubisoft, for example?

"the complex the mesh & rigs become the more problems blender gets...": Last time I used Maya, it was the opposite. Probably depends on what you call "Complex". Also, on a personnal experience, I don't know if they fixed it since, but when I made a rig on Maya, if I make just ONE mistake of constraint on the rig, the rig breaks and Ctrl + Z doesn't solve anything. Once you failed, you failed and can only pray that your latest save was really recent. What a loss of time. Ah, and did Autodesk changed the fact that by default, you can't scale your rig unless you use a custom rig from an addon or make a manipulation with nodes that take 1 hour?

Also, can we customize the shortcuts and the interface? Because, the hidden menus are great and helpful, but they're so heavy and slow! Shortcuts are not a lot present and explained and the interface... No, seriously, the interface... How can you work with it unless you have two 4K resolution 32" screens?

Whatever you can say, you maybe can do the technically most difficult things on Maya which are most of the time useless for most of the productions, you can do in less than half the time the most frequently used features and tools with Blender. Offer me Maya and ask me to model a table and chairs (simple example), I'd download and open Blender. And I started professionally on Softimage and Maya even before learning Blender by myself. Maya is not made to be productive by default.

Unless they really made HUGE changes since last time I used it. I know they did, I recently saw how was Maya 2019. But it seems to me it's not enough at all.

Only points when I find you're right are those:

• "none of them [professional animators] would use Quaternion for their work"
• "Maya has more features and tools than Blender" (Though, it would be better if they organize them well in the software instead of stuffing it to allow professionals to use those directly... or if you do that, you call your new version "Maya 2020 Alpha", like Blender does).

* @Ak MC * there is no bias here it's a all facts, because speaking of rigging there is only Drivers & Constraints in Blender and python for scripting custom tools, animation nodes is an addon and it's limited for complex Character rigs, can u show me some of them in Blender? No, because there isn't besides those cartonny ones & test demos.

it's not Ubisoft the AAA game Studios which everybody makes this confusion; it's their Animation Studio – a small department of Ubisoft that's testing the waters for Blender instead of using their in-house tool for TV Shows hence small production, will have to see where this goes first and if it spreads to their famous game Studios.

You clearly haven't used Maya since a long time and you don't know where it's today, so there is no point in arguing with someone who doesn't know the huge changes and difference that it made, of course it fails in certain parts, no Software is perfect and will always lack in some areas but what we are talking here is things for production.

Maya has gone through heavy use in production and the tools are more matured & polished than the ones in Blender, not long ago you couldn't even use Blender timeline like a normal one and the freaky UI/UX made it horrible software only a fringe of users stuck with it, with 2.80 they changed the skin but still that fringe software under the hood if you dig deeper.

Yet the users still think it's the best one ever and will takeover the industry standards.

I don't worship the Software like some of you do, I see where i can use it for and act accordingly but seeing how Blender community act like childish and always defensive is really putting me off.

* @PK_GO * You're saying that "Blender community act like childish and always defensive"

Though, you also said "ask any Professional Animators & they'll tell you they prefer Maya over Blender". -> No, as a professional animator who have some contacts as well, I can tell you that the only pro animators I talked with just said that they prefer Blender or that they never tryed it. You talk in the name of ALL the professional animators there, but you can't do that.

You also said "it's your comment that's misinformed, now just corrected". & "there is no bias here it's a all facts" -> So, you have the absolute truth? Interesting.

"don't self praise." -> Joesphbburg didn't do that. He just tryed to made you understand that you act like if you have the absolute truth.

......

What I mean is that you don't say you're talking in the name of most of the pro animators you know, but you say that all animators are like that. While, as I can answer you Maya is just "your personal preference".

You don't ONLY say that Maya has more features than Blender, you mostly say that Maya is far better because it has such qualities, but you neglect Blender's qualities as well, as if all Maya's qualities makes the software better, but Blender qualities don't.

If that was the case, don't you think that, as a pro animator, I would also use Maya and prefer it? I tryed to learn Maya seriously AND I kept me informed about the updates... And only things I saw were the comments on new Autodesk 2020 Softwares on YouTube (Maya and 3DS-max), where almost everyone is commenting, to resume: "Farewell Autodesk, Hello Blender". Of course, I'm not idiot: I know that most of them probably aren't pro users, but those kinds of comments are growing higher and higher at each Autodesk updates.

So, maybe you should think twice before defending Maya the way you do and acting like if you have the absolute truth about Maya and Blender. It's YOUR personnal preference... as Blender is MINE, of course.

And, as final conclusion, Blender community is not acting childish and always defensive... But you should be careful to not acting this way to Maya. Because with such behaviour, you're only taunting the Blender community. This is what I meant when I used the word "biased".

End of the story... I hope.

* @Ak MC * I didn't defend Maya, I said it's not perfect same as Blender but to say it's horrible especially we all know that's a very powerful tool and have been used in production for decades shows that you lack the knowledge about it just like most Blender trolls on the comments section who needs something to validate their choices.

that's exactly what you're trying to do here..I know enough Animators who clearly are using Maya instead of Blender and everybody knows it lacks in those numbers even Ton made a plea for Maya riggers & Animators to come to Blender.,& he knows that the tools and systems are outdated & not robust enough.

I have been around the forums and seeing that even the most veteran Blender users agree with me.

Blender is more like jack of all trades master of none, tries to do many things but fails in them all, It's good for kids learning or small sized production when you don't have to output high stuff, that's why Open movies are made and most of them looks like done by amateurs.

Blender community always act childish & hateful towards others,heck even they think Blender is going to replace Zbrush,Toonboom ..etc that's a fact that we have been seeing over & over again, no one is taunting anybody but if you can't accept facts then that's your problem.

* @PK_GO * Please just let this thread die. I'm tired of getting this flame war cancer in my notification box. We don't care about the software you use, this thread isn't about Maya v Blender. If you have something to say about setting the default rotation mode for new objects/bones, please, go ahead. Otherwise... just let the thread die, won't you?

* @Josephbburg * neither do i give a shit, but tell the other guy to fuck off .

* @PK_GO * C'mon, try to keep it civil at least. That's uncalled for.

* @PK_GO * ENOUGH! You don't want to apologize for starting a stupid debate and even called childish the members of this community, so I won't apologize for having answered neither. But at least, remain courteous and polite. How much mature do you think you're acting?

I didn't insult you, understood!

This is my last answer to you and I hope I won't find a new notification later.

* @Ak MC * " I hope I won't find a new notification later." what does that supposed to mean? is this a threat!

Why should i apologize for expressing my opinion? because you got offended from it and had to reply every single time...

if you where mature you would have just ignored it but you kept coming back with the same ridiculous excuses each time & if you or anyone else tries to patronize me then i'll respond back.

* @PK_GO * Alright, I really didn't want to answer, but since you misinterpreted, I feel like I should. What you quoted for me was not a threat. It just meant that I hoped you'd be mature enough to not answer back.

Because yes, our answers are just polluting the notifications here.

Now, answer me and try to make me seem like the immature guy if you want, I just needed to answer one last time because my previous comment was indeed clumsy and it's understandable that you didn't interpret it correctly. I apologize for that.

Also, why apologizing? Well, if you're convinced you expressed your opinion correctly, then, good for you, I don't care, but maybe you could have apologized to having asked someone to "f##k off". I don't remember having disrespecting or insulting you (It's funny by the way how you said I'm the one getting offended while you're the one saying me to "f##k off".)

But after all, it's also maybe a way to express your opinion.

Now follow your own advice and just ignore my comment... or just answer me to "f**k off" and now that you know I didn't intend to threat you, I will be the one following your advice. Whatever. I'm done now.